An Interview with Dave Holmes - 11/03/2021

This past November, I interviewed former MTV VJ and St. Louisian Dave Holmes about his new podcast, Waiting for Impact: A Dave Holmes Passion Project. I took an online writing class Holmes taught online through Dynasty Typewriter during the pandemic-y fall of 2020, and we bonded over being music obsessives from St. Louis. I had hoped to intertwine most of the interview within the article but ended up having to keep the whole thing at about 1000 words. Instead, here’s the transcript of our conversation, including some bits where we talked about writing and how I ended up with the RFT gig. Enjoy!

photo credit: Robyn Von Swank

Jack Probst: The podcast is called Waiting for Impact: A Dave Holmes Passion Project. Tell me about it and why it's truly a passion project for you.

Dave Holmes: Well, it's about an investigation into the whereabouts of a boy band called Sudden Impact, who made a three-second cameo appearance Boys II Men's "Motown Philly" video, and then that's all they did. Or at least that's all that we ever saw them do. That video was huge in 1991 when I was sort of at my peak video watching years. They were a part of Michael Bivins's East Coast family; Michael Bivins of New Edition and Bell Biv DeVoe had a development deal with Motown. You know, he brought Boys II Men into the world, and they became the biggest selling R&B group of all time. Bell Biv DeVoe was huge for a few years. There was a group called Another Bad Creation that had a couple of hits single. All of these acts are in "Motown Philly." And then for three seconds, there's Sudden Impact, who are these five guys in matching shirts and neckties, and they pointed the camera boldly like, "Get ready for Sudden Impact!" and I was like, "Hell yeah, I'm ready for Sudden Impact!" And then nothing happened. 

So, at the time, I was just kind of like, "I wonder when that album is coming out," and it never did. And then, as life went on, it was just something that I would think of every few months, and I always kind of felt that there was a story there. It felt like a hard sell for a magazine piece, and I didn't know whether there was enough story for a book, but my friends Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark of [the podcast] My Favorite Murder got their own development deal, a podcast company called Exactly Right. So, as they were launching that company, I took them and their development person out and pitched them this idea which I was like, "This is ridiculous, but whatever, maybe something will come of it," and they were like, "No, you're doing this. Do this for us now." So, I did. It felt to me like a good fit for them because although it is not like a true crime story, there is an element of investigation to it. But it also was good for them because it's weird. It is, you know, essentially a very strange idea. 

After making a deal to do ten episodes and starting the investigation and beginning to make contact with the people in this group, writing the scripts began to feel very strange because there was this voice in my head telling me like, "Alright, Dave, you've finally done it. You have finally done the thing that nobody could possibly care about." But I really did believe deep down that it's not only the story of this band, it's the story about resilience, and it's about dashed hopes and what you do with them. It's about 90s pop culture and how utterly different it is from our world right now. It touches on so many things that I'm really interested in, and the story of this group on top of it, it turns out to be really interesting as well. 

And so, as a form of self-hypnosis, I decided to make [A Dave Holmes Passion Project] the subtitle so that as I was reading scripts, I would have to say it. And I would have to continually remind myself that if I give a shit and I work hard enough, I can make you give a shit. Right? And that's what I love to do. But I found that I needed a bit of magic with this one.

The truth is when you sit down to write, especially when it's personal or when it's something that is kind of niche or whatever, there's a certain degree of cheerleading that you have to do for yourself. And it doesn't matter how long you've been at it; we'll always be back at square one. So that was my little trick.

Probst: So, my first cover story with The Riverfront Times was just something I pitched about Record Store Day and how it's different now with the pandemic. They were just like, “Well, what do you want to write and how long?” because I had, obviously, personal experience from working [at Euclid Records]. And they gave me more words than I asked, and then I wake up the day of publication and I'm on the cover, and I was like, “Oh, okay!” And it was just like this, you know… [I’m] working hard to put myself into this thing and going, “I do know what I'm talking about,” because I was there and I've been through this and it's different now, but here's what it was like. They actually let me put in some stuff about myself, which was great.

Holmes: That is great and that is what hooks a reader or listener in. It’s that personal touch, you know? People in the past have shied away from it because it feels like you're involving yourself or you're being narcissistic or whatever it may be, and maybe you are, but it is also how you hook a listener or reader and you provide your personal details and your personal emotions, and people can kind of relate to you a little bit more.

Probst: That's what I've always felt like with what I'm writing. It helps when I can put myself there and go, “Well, this is exactly how things were, but I'm also giving facts.”

Holmes: Sure, yeah, and those things, you can always dial them back a bit once the thing is over if you want. But you also kind of have to remind yourself why you yourself are engaged with the story.

Probst: After episode two, I watched the Boys II Men Motown Philly video because I remember the song being around, but I was a kid, you know? And those [Sudden Impact] guys are pointing at the camera. It reminds me of the guys that my uncles hung out with when they were going to Vianney High School. Like the dress shirts and the ties.

Holmes: Oh shit, so Vianney! Yeah, totally, and the more that I talk to them, the more pictures I see, the more I'm like, "Oh, I know these guys. Like, I don't know these guys, but I know these guys."

Probst: In the first episode, you mentioned the 90s were the last time that everybody experienced entertainment at the same time and that cultural point; I just thought that was so interesting. Because at this point, the internet just has taken pop culture and culture and just expanded it, so there are so many more niche categories. How do you feel about being someone who both grew up in that time of mass experience of X amount of things, but also somebody who fits well now in so many different niches of pop culture than maybe you did when you were at MTV?

Holmes: You know, I miss that monoculture moment. The proverbial water cooler and the things that people would talk about around it that everyone had seen or at least had an opinion on. Now that is shattered, and I miss it, but whatever. It's not a bad thing. What's great about the shattering of popular culture is that there are so many new entry points now. And there are fewer gatekeepers, you know? It was interesting that we were all watching and listening to the same things back then, but you know, for those things to get from idea to product, there were a million people in the way, and those people tended to be straight white men, and they would always kind of sand down the edges to make things palatable for bajillion people to watch or listen. Obviously, there are exceptions, but traditionally in popular culture, things needed to be kind of massaged for the mainstream. And now, it's like, really, anybody can just get a microphone and plug it in and start talking, and that person has just as much of a chance to gain an audience and to make it a sustainable way to live a life as somebody who's the star of a network show. It's kind of exciting. There are a lot more voices in the mix right now, and that to me is that to me is really exciting. There is no way that even ten years ago, I could have done Waiting for Impact as a TV show or a cable show. Even in the early days of streaming, there's no way somebody would have taken a chance, but now we can. And that, to me, is exciting.

Probst: I don't want to necessarily keep bringing my age [but] in 1991 I turned six. 

Holmes: That's okay! That's all right. 

Probst: But when I was growing up, my uncles were in high school and college, so I was exposed to bands like R.E.M., and they'd take me to shows. I saw Billy Joel, The Cure, Elvis Costello, and They Might Be Giants, all before I was eight years old. So, you know, I was a little bit further along than other kids then. Sure, they showed me how to make mixtapes as a kid, but I didn't experience 1991 pop culture in the same way as someone in their 20s at that time. Tell me a bit more of what it was like to consume media in that way. [In the podcast] you talk about mainstream radio being everywhere then, and that's what everybody listened to, for the most part.

Holmes: '91 was a really exciting year, a watershed year because it was like the 80s kind of ended in 1991. In the popular imagination, decades don't cleanly end or start. It's not 1980 to 1989. The go-go 80s began to peter out a little bit. Adult contemporary was really big in 1991, and the real bouncy pop of the 80s was beginning to kind of sputter out a little bit. In 1991, [Nirvana's] Nevermind blew up. Also, at this time, as [pop critic] Chris Molanphy gets into in the podcast, Billboard began to change their methodology and the way that they built their singles and album charts, and they began to more accurately reflect what people were really listening to. And so, because of that, everything changed, and the sound for the rest of the 90s was like R&B that was kind of hip hop-inflected, harder-edged Hip Hop than had been popular in the past, alternative music. Everything really changed, and 91 was the year that the 90s really began in earnest. And I was in college at that time, so I feel like I'm kind of lucky to have been the age that I was during that year.

Probst: It was fun to hear more about SoundScan. I started at [Euclid Records] in 2004, so [SoundScan] was still kind of a thing, but also the age of the computers we were still working on didn't always send it; it didn't always work. It just got to a point where it was like this isn't such a big deal anymore. I've heard the guys who've been in the record business for forever talking about when [SoundScan] came about. It was cool to hear more about the specifics of it the podcast.

Holmes: Yeah. I don't know that I can say that it became 100% accurate all at once. When Chris [Molanphy] talks about the way the charts had been compiled before, it was just sort of like, some guy says these are the top 40 singles, so here are the top 40 singles.

Probst: That's just wild to think of. You call a record store somewhere, and you're like, "Okay, what has sold," and then that clerk is like, "here's what it is," but [they could] just say whatever the fuck they wanted. That's crazy. 

Holmes: You. Could. Just. Say. Whatever. The. Fuck. You. Wanted. Yeah, that's real crazy.

Probst: So, tell me about what it was like for a kid from St. Louis to suddenly be on a huge network like MTV. 

Holmes: It was completely insane, obviously. I remember when I first started at MTV, once they got past the audition and the contest and once I started hosting, specifically hosting live shows, it was very strange. I felt very calm for the first time in my life. Growing up in St. Louis, especially, you know, West County, and going to Priory - which is a great school, and I had a wonderful experience there - but if your interests run in this direction, you grow up a little anxious about how you're going to make a living, and whether you're normal and all of these things that are crazy from where I am now. But to wake up and go to work and the fact that you've got a brain that retains the three seconds of Sudden Impact from a 1991 video that goes from being an embarrassing quirk to being a job skill for, like, a really cool job. That was incredible. Walking in during the audition and seeing the studio and feeling the excitement and all the PAs running around with headsets and clipboards and all of the chaos. It just really felt like the mothership came down to pick me up. And once I got that job and started being able to do it and use my skills and stuff that I didn't even know were skills, I really just kind of relaxed into it in a way that I had never really relaxed in any kind of job before.

Probst: That's kind of how I feel like now having done the internship with The Riverfront Times over the summer, and them taking me on freelance. When I wrote for Eleven Magazine, they let me do some personal essays here and there, but mostly album reviews, and that was, like, this is my strong suit. And then I started focusing more on personal essays, especially when taking your class, and those helped me get the RFT gig. They were like, “We love your writing, but have you done any reporting?” And it was like, “Um, no, so if there’s somebody else more qualified…,” and they were like, “No, no, no, we like your writing. We can teach you this stuff. No big deal.” 

Holmes: Yes, yes!

Probst: And it was great! It was so great, but they also just kind of threw me into it. And all of a sudden, I have to interview people, and I'm like, “Holy shit, what do I do?” And I got very minimal advice on [it] like, “Oh, it's no big deal and you just come up with this and that,” so I feel like I've taught myself a lot going through this. It’s just gotten easier and easier, except for all the lead up where I'm like, “Oh, man, another interview. Here we go.” 

Holmes: It's the self-talk. My career at Esquire kind of ran along those same lines as well. I came in doing kind of personal essay type of stuff, and just being a voice, and then because I was being published there more and more, I started to get interviews and profiles and proper assignments, and I did't know how to do them either. So, my editor is saying, “You know, we need to work on the nut graph,” and I'm googling what a nut graph is. Whatever. There's all this stuff that I didn't know. But, your bosses were right, that is stuff that can be taught very easily. The thing cannot teach is voice and perspective, and sense of humor and point of view. Those are things that are innate. That you can apply to the stuff that they can teach you in an afternoon.

Probst: Sidebar: Have you ever heard of Slayyyter? 

Holmes: No.

Probst: She is Twitter famous. But it’s “Slayyyter” with three ‘y’s so she could have her name on every kind of [social media]. So, she's from Kirkwood, and she like came up on Spotify. She’s got a song called “Throatzilla,” which is about exactly what you would expect. But then also, these sweet techno-pop songs. I was looking for things to report on and I'm like, I’ll send her people an email and be like, “Oh, if she wants to talk about St. Louis and blah, blah, blah.” And I'm thinking they're not gonna get back to me. The next day they're like, “Oh, yeah, she's really excited to do it. Give us a time [for an interview].” 

Holmes: Well, of course they’re gonna get back to you.

Probst: And it was like, oh shit, because you know she has this persona that is very like “I don't give a shit” popstar and I felt like, “what if this is miserable?” And so, I stressed about it way too long, and like we get to it and she was just the sweetest, super excited Midwest person. Like, “let's talk about St. Louis food!” It really broke me through a lot of things where I was like, I can interview people who are on a certain level of fame without it being like, you know, sometimes there are people who totally shut down in interviews. I'm like, fuck is she gonna… I don't know, I didn’t know what to expect and it was one loveliest interviews I’ve had. 

Holmes: Well, that is good to hear. Yeah, I'm sure they're still difficult people or whatever, so then maybe that's the story. There's always something you can do, even if they don't give you anything. But I think people understand now the incredible benefit of press and attention. It's less of a chore for people, I hope.

Probst: I think it really helped, too, that her album had just come out. I thought it had been out earlier in the year, and I talked to her like a couple days after it hit. She was excited because she's like, “I get to be in The Riverfront Times,” and I was like, “Oh, yeah, I'm working for a publication that people around here actually get excited about!” 

Holmes: Hell yeah! I love that. I love that and I'm gonna look her up now.

Probst: Yeah, I think you'd enjoy some of it. Looking at all the pictures of her and it was intimidating. And she was just like so nice. 

Holmes: Isn’t that the best?

Probst: It was so cool. I was so nervous and all of a sudden we're best friends. It's great!

Holmes: Yeah! What a feeling. I love it!

Probst: What was your development process on the podcast? You talked about how you got it going with Georgia [Hardstark] and Karen [Kilgariff], but as far as actually jumping in, there's that investigation part, and it's very interesting. You interview somebody, and then you happen to find another link to another person. You don't go in planning all of that. I was just curious how you got going on the investigation?

Holmes: You know, I went forward with the hope that I would make contact with these gentlemen. But I also had to do a lot of thinking about why the story was important to me and why it was interesting to me. I signed the deal, and then I was like, "Fuck, I hope there's ten episodes with a story here because now I have to do that." And so, I hedged my bet a little bit by finding a few different kinds of people; people who had experienced or hoped for the level of 1991 fame that Sudden impact was aspiring to, or people in my life who were on a specific path in the early 90s and changed direction and are now doing something different and better. And then also because 1991 was a time before the internet, you could have a moment of fame and then vanish and not leave a trail of digital crumbs the way that you do now. There were people who had a moment in 1991 who I had just always wondered what they're up to now, and so I did a little social media sleuthing and tracked them down and brought them into the story. The idea with that was that if this whole thing goes bust [and], I never find these guys, they can still be the guiding principle behind it, even if I don't find them. But I did, so I still got this other half that is about the 90s. A lot of it I did have to lose because the main story does end up being really interesting, but there's also different voices and perspectives from the 90s that kind of fill in why the story is so compelling for me, and I think [it] gives a really relatable perspective about hopes and dreams and expectations and the way that real life stacks up to them. It ended up being a thing that is about something - capital A, capital S: About Something - and that's what I was really hoping for.

Probst: Yeah, I came in expecting one thing, and then when you had interviews with Karen [Kilgariff] about her life at that same time, it was really cool. Even if it wasn't directly connected [to Sudden Impact], it was connected to the 90s and it builds a story there. And that singer, the solo guy whose album didn't get put out? 

Holmes: Yeah, Hayden.

Probst: Hayden, yes. That was so interesting and so cool to hear from that guy. I listened last night, and, oh man, what a get for something like that.

Holmes: I loved that guy that. He will floor you. And, if you go on YouTube and look at his videos like, dude can sing! But he took that ride, and it went the way that it went and he's like, “Alright, that's it. I’m gonna go be a dad now,” and he’s content. That’s a perspective you don't often hear. But yeah, I really fell in love with that guy. 

Probst: You mentioned a little bit about growing up in West County, but is there anything else about St. Louis and growing up here that you feel is worth talking about?

Holmes: Well, first of all, I have kind of a different perspective on St. Louis now because, you know, I grew up in West County. A few years ago, we had a surprise birthday party for my mother, and I came to town a couple of days early, and I obviously couldn't stay with my parents because they would know and I couldn't stay with my brothers because whatever. So, I Airbnb'd a place around Tower Grove Park, and I kind of lived an undercover lifestyle for a few days in an area that I really never spent any significant amount of time in. And I was like, "This is awesome." I really dug that sort of Bohemian-ish lifestyle in my very own hometown. I'd never really accessed it in my upbringing. Because St. Louis is not, on the whole, a very bohemian place, and because it's more difficult to be eccentric or whatever, it's kind of a more satisfying kind of a neighborhood. The groovy bohemian shit doesn't come to you in St. Louis. You sort of have to create it, which always makes it more interesting. 

Growing up in West County and going to a boys’ school where pretty much everybody was your stereotypical football-playing male and being somebody who wasn't that definitely was a bit isolating and a bit terrifying. But in adulthood, the sort of anxiety of my youth has transformed into an insatiable need to create and to succeed and to be heard and understood. I feel like I have a restlessness from my youth that has turned into kind of a crazy work ethic, so I'm happy for that.

Probst: As far as when you come back to town, are there any restaurants you got to hit up or any foods you gotta have that you can't get anywhere else?

Holmes: Obviously, toasted ravioli at every meal. Like, truly. Breakfast – toasted ravioli. Like, literally, I just have to have it. And it's great that every St. Louis restaurant serves it, basically. I always want to get to The Hill, for sure. The last time I was home [we] went to the Balkan Treat Box in Webster Groves, which was unreal. Certainly, the Central West End. I have to do that little spin. That's where my friends and I would go to feel grown-up when we were in high school. And you know, Tom's Bar and Grill would not check our IDs. That's a landmark. 

Also, I love The Improv Shop in The Grove. They have a really good thing going there. And there again, I live in Los Angeles where, you know, I'm an improv guy, and the people who take classes tend to do that because they feel like, after six weeks, Lorne Michaels will call them personally and put them on Saturday Night Live. Still, in New York and LA, you, in a lot of cases, do it to be discovered. Where in a place like St. Louis, you do it because you have a creative itch you wanna scratch, and the performers there are so next-level great. I always try to swing in and do a show or sit in on something. But I just love that that scene exists in St. Louis.

Probst: I read [you book] Party of One when it came out. Do you plan on writing another book? 

Holmes: I am kind of working on that proposal right now. But you know what, honestly, in many ways Waiting for Impact is my second book. Okay, like, in a way, I kind of - god, I hope I don't sound like a fucking jerk - but I, a little bit, consider it my second album because, in my heart, I am like an alternative rock performer. I have no musical talent whatsoever, but I've always thought of things in terms of albums. And so, [Waiting for Impact] was in terms of volume of work and word counts and whatever was very much the equivalent of a second book, but in a slightly different medium. In my head, I'm calling it my second album, and now I'm saying it out loud, and it really does sound… fucking stupid. (Laughs.)

Probst: No, no! It fits well with Party of One. It's about how music connects with your life. I can tell you whole stories based on albums, and I've done it writing [personal] essays. I get that, and I really like it, so it doesn't make you sound like a jerk in my mind.

Holmes: Okay, good, well, I hope not. But I do want to keep creating, and I do want to keep trying out new media and new methods of storytelling. And I, of course, want to do another book and all of that, but there are a thousand new ways to get ideas out. This kind of felt like a good one, and then a year from now, there may be something new. And I'm always co-writing and writing spec scripts, so the third album may be a television project. We will see. But yeah, for some reason, it helps me to organize my thoughts when I think of it that way.